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 | fmtrvt
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 NJ 
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2003-02-08 48883
Thought this may have been discussed before, but can't find it.
I have an '84 1710 with FEL and 1300 hrs. I went to use it today for the first time in about 2 months and was able to bring up the bucket and rotate it, then back the tractor out of the shed. I made a slight turn then went to alter the bucket position and found that I lost all hydraulics, including power steering. I've checked the fluid level (OK) and this load of hydraulic oil has only 100 hrs. It's been cold in this area for the last months (NJ).
I'm planing on changing out the filter (just because) and will bring down a pressure gauge for the diverter valve on my next trip. Does anyone know if this hydraulic pump has a key to it's drive gear? Anyone have a history for this issue? Any suggestions?
Jack (first message; long time lurker)
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa 
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2003-02-08 48884
Jack, if the fluid in your hyd system was not Ford NH product it may not have had the proper cold flow specs. to get thru the micron size of your filter, which could stop flow. I have had a key shear on a hyd pump (not a Ford NH), and you do lose all pressure instantly. Some systems use a charge pump to feed the main hyd. pump with low pressure fluid from the sump to prevent cavitation in your main pump. Again I'm not familiar with the Ford NH system, but if either pump fails (charge or main, you're out of business. Just some thoughts that may help. ....
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| fmtrvt
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 NJ
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2003-02-08 48891
hardwood,
Thanks for the reply. You bring up a good point in that the last change-out was with a Valoline product, since at the time I did not have the 134 fluid that is currently in 2 5gal pails next to the tractor for this springs change-out, of course.
The tractor is a single pump unit. I hoping it's a simple as a relief valve stuck, but my luck usually does not run that way. Other then a water pump, this would be the first major I've had. ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-02-08 48896
With the cold weather there could be a number of things that cause the failure.
With lack of use you may have a little water in the system, which has frozen and is keeping a valve open.
You may have lost an O'ring internal seal but this is normally at lower temperature than you get in NJ. On a real cold day I have put my foot to the floor literally, but on the brake pedal of the car. The seals just shattered at the temperature despite warming the car.
I was curious as to how long you ran the tractor and warmed it before trying the hydraulics. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-02-09 48906
Yes, there is a key (SBA034303013) and also a seal kit (SBA340490157). It's good to diagnose a specific problem before throwing parts at it, but the parts should be available through a NH dealer (it's better if the parts guy looks up the numbers though).
It sure does sound like a pump failure, although the suction line and filter might be checked for obstructions or breaks. 1710's do have a priority valve for the PS but I'd discount that as a possible problem since all hydraulics including the PS failed. Even if the PS relief valve failed and the priority valve diverted max flow to the PS, I'd still expect some movement from the loader etc. The PS high-pressure line is small and I wouldn't expect it to carry the full pump flow without creating considerable back-pressure.
I wish I had some specific experience to offer from my 1710 with 650 hours. My PS is gimpy but it's there and the hydraulics just keep working. I'd expect the pump service lift to be quite a bit longer than 1,300 hours. You might check with a dealer and just replaced the pump if it's getting close to the end of its expected service life. It's much colder here than in NJ and I use either NH F200 or an AGCO multi-season hydraulic oil. My dealer recommended the F200. The local snowmobile club's groomer is a converted NH farm tractor that uses 134D all winter. I can't compare 134D with the Valvoline oil, but 134D probably wouldn't cause a problem in your area.
....
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| fmtrvt
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 NJ
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2003-02-09 48954
Peters,
As I've usually done, I let it run for about 5 minutes in the shed, then pull it out and run some more depending on the temp. Yesterday it was 30F when this happened, although earlier weeks went down to 10F.
TomG,
Thanks for the part numbers. I've got the service manual, but not the parts listings. I think it's the pump or key, although I'll check with a new filter in case it clogged. But I would suspect in that situation that the element would be suctioned into the pump. May be the case as it failed under raising and turning, not high load.
Does the seal kit cover all in the pump? If the key is sheared, I like to open the pump and see what is in there. Does the parts manual show what type of pump it is?
Thanks,
Jack ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-02-10 48974
Parts manuals can be sort of interesting in a twisted sort of way, at least for some people.
There are two pumps listed for 1710's covering from 1983 on. One is 8cc and the other 11cc. The 8cc pump has a note indicating the pump is for L/Power steering on 198484 Asian models only. There also is a different 8cc pump listed for 1510's.
However, the parts for 1710 offsets lists the same two pumps from 85 but the notes indicate the pumps are for L/power steering and W/power steering with no mention of Asian models. The 8cc pump is the same one listed for Asian model 1710's and not the NA 1510. At least the keys seem to be the same for all pumps and models, including the 1510.
Meanwhile, the seal kit for 1510's indicates that it contains 12 bolts and 5 o-rings but the drawing reference is to a box labeled 'kit,' so you can't tell what goes where. But for 1710's There is a note that no parts breakdown is available for 1710 kits since the kits come from the supplier rather than Shibaura. A good guess is that the kit is for the whole pump, but it is just a guess. Similarly, I'd guess that the pump is the 11cc pump.
One thing obvious from all this is that having a parts manual is good, but just having one isn't a complete substitute for asking a real parts guy. When all is said and done, I'm not really sure if this is helpful or not. What might be more helpful is that I recall there is a note with the priority valve parts. The note refers to a technical note issued for separating the priority valve from the pump. The note might be a good thing to track down.
....
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| fmtrvt
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 NJ
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2003-02-11 49093
Update for those interested -
Today we had weather that hovered at 34F, so at the end of the day I left work and went down to the nursery to check over the tractor, change the filter (in case) and possibly remove the pump.
First started up the tractor, then tried to lift the bucket. Hydraulics work! I was able to lift and curl, although I did not try anything strenuous. But it went through the motions that it could not on Saturday.
So it may be possible the fluid has a high water content, and under the freezing temps, the system was not able to draw fluid. This is not how my normal luck goes, and working with hydraulics over many years, not sure I'm buying into this.
However, when I last changed the fluid 100 hrs ago I did note some water at first drain. The tractor is kept under cover, but condensation can get into anything. There also may be an area that is not sealed as well as it should be.
So my next move on Saturday will be to change out to the NH 134 fluid with a new filter if I'm able to lift substantial weight with the bucket. If not, pump is going to come off and I'll be dissecting it. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-02-12 49115
Who knows, it just might be that good luck that eventually catches up with all of us. A hundred hours doesn't seem like much for appreciable condensation to build up. I guess it could if the hundred hours lasted was over a few years.
If the tractor had been outside in heavy rains it's possible for water to get into the TX through the shift boot. Water can collect on the TX top-plate and run into the TX through bad seals around the shifter. There's an inner and an outer seal. I haven't a torn boot on my 1710 I haven't gotten around to replacing. I rationalize that I don't really want to work the tractor in the rain and that if I had to, the canopy would keep water off the TX.
....
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| fmtrvt
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 NJ
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2003-02-25 50023
The final solution, sort of.
I wanted to put an end to this tread. So often you find open ended threads and never know what happened.
The weekend that I went to change out the fluids I started the tractor and let it run - again. Hydraulics still worked - up, down, curl and PS. Then I tried to let the bucket float and noticed that the bucket would slowly rise, rather then go down to the soil level. So the issue at least at this point appeared to be at the loader valve.
I ran some more and worked the bucket with some loads and after about 10 minutes, the float function worked again. I continued using it for another hour with no issues.
The fluid and filter were changed, but I did not have any evidence of water, which may be due to the hour long operation. Anyway no problems since so it appears water ice was the issue after all.
That to those for their input and assistance in looking information up.
Jack ....
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